With the Edison, New Jersey Convention Center in the rearview, a white-knuckled Chris Frangiosa chips away mile by mile at the 5 ½ hour drive to Pulaski, New York. It was dark, it was cold, it was rainy, it was snowy, and the roads were slick as hell. Despite the sketchy conditions, this road trip wasn’t unlike others. Our car was grossly overloaded, and conversations between the front and back seats bounced between jokes and funny stories, to the conditions and flows we’d face on the Salmon River the following morning. Somewhere between New Jersey and New York, the conversation veered towards permit fishing.

Chris Frangiosa didn’t exactly grow up in the permit capital of the world, but thanks to his chosen career path, he’s managed to grab his fair share of black forked tails in various regions of the tropics. Chris was born and raised in Chaddsford Pennsylvania. As a kid, Chris’ life interests could be boiled down into two categories — skateboarding and fishing.

By the time Chris was 13 years old he was skating less and fishing more. He was in possession of his first fly rod and became intimately familiar with his local creeks and ponds. From the Pennsylvania creeks and ponds, Chris’ angling endeavors evolved once he and his family began taking vacations to Meccas such as Montana and Wyoming. While in college, he began to meet other likeminded (obsessive) anglers who collectively began exploring salt water fly fishing for species such as stripers and bluefish.

In 2006, Chris landed a gig as the store manager for the Pennsylvania based, TCO, a fly shop that has earned the reputation as being one of the most respected and professional fly fishing retailers in the world. Chris still works for TCO all these years later and is now in charge of five locations. From his earliest days at TCO, Chris was hosting trips to places such as Canada and Alaska. But it wasn’t long before Chris got his first opportunity to host a group of anglers to Belize. This trip would be the start of an entirely new chapter in Chris’ book of angling obsessions.

From the backseat of the car on that hair raising ride to Pulaski, I overheard Chris make the comment “…when I started doing that, I immediately began hooking more permit.” That’s when I crudely abandoned my backseat conversation and interjected myself in the discussion taking place in the front seat. What’s below is by no means a new concept or tactic, but rather a testimonial of sorts that will hopefully inspire and give anglers the confidence they need to get aggressive the next time they find themselves in casting distance of the most “elusive” and difficult flats species to fool with a fly — permit.    

Simms: How did permit first come onto your radar?

Frangiosa: I’ll start by saying that to this day, steelhead and permit are my favorite fish to chase. They are polar opposites and I love both for different reasons. However, there are some similarities in the difficulty and the required commitment that’s associated with both fish. Also, there’s something about the fact that success doesn’t always come from catching a fish. I guess I got bit by permit back in 06 when I first started working for TCO. I was asked to host a trip to Belize. It was a group of 10 and it was a great trip. It’s also when I caught my first bonefish. I remember thinking, wow, that was way easier than I thought it would be. On that same trip, I was wading on the reef next to some deeper water and I saw two giant tailing permit. I still have photos of those fish by the way. That moment truly mystified me. I genuinely felt I can’t do that and there’s no way I could ever do that.

Simms: What was it about that scenario that made you feel like it was an impossible endeavor?

Frangiosa: I don’t know, I guess it was just such a textbook visual which if you’ve never seen a permit tailing hard in skinny water, when you do, it’ll be something you never forget. I suppose it was just the fact that the fish appeared to be huge, how they were moving, where they were. It was just a combination of things that pushed me to think bigger. Back then, I did a lot of bonefishing and continue to do so to this day. But it’s just the lore around permit and the challenges that really get me excited.

Simms: And you continue to host trips through TCO?

Frangiosa: Absolutely. I’ve hosted 50 trips to Belize alone since 2006. It’s one of my favorite spots and is obviously one of the more popular destinations we offer.

Simms: So, permit aren’t what most would consider to be a gradual entry into the world of sight-fishing. That said, I’m sure you get your fair share of beginners that want to experience it. How do you pitch/set expectations of a permit trip to potential clients?

Frangiosa: I agree, permit fishing can be maddening. But, I’ll tell you something — in general, beginners tend to catch more permit than experienced anglers.

Simms: I definitely agree with you there. In your mind, why do you think that is?

Frangiosa: Sometimes, the more you know, the more you build things up in your head. I think with beginners, they just don’t have the fear and nervousness experienced anglers build up over time. Often times, newbies don’t realize just how big of a deal hooking a permit is. Without having a case of permit fever, anglers tend to be more aggressive with their shots and to me, that’s been a critical key to the success I’ve experienced in recent year.

Simms: So let’s go back to the pitch. What’s your approach?

Frangiosa: Really, I ask questions. So, you want to go permit fishing?, I’ll ask. What happens when it’s the final day and you haven’t hooked one and you haven’t caught a single fish the entire trip? A lot of times, the answer is something to the effect of, I’ll go bonefishing. That’s totally fine, and it’s not a wrong answer by any stretch — but in my mind, until you fully commit to it, you’re putting limitations on your success. You’ve really got to not only be willing, but dedicated to leave the dock with only permit rods. If you see bonefish, you’ve got to be content with ignoring them. You’ve got to go out with one intention and stick with it. Not to say you’ll never get one, but every minute you’re not actively pursuing permit is a potential missed opportunity. Assuming you can cast, it’s all about dedicated time on the bow. I’ll give you a great example. It was on my last trip to Cuba. I think there were about eighteen of us on the trip. At the end, 375 bonefish were caught and only eight permit. All eight permit were caught between three people. For the entire trip, those three people spent every minute on the water looking for permit and permit only. There were days they didn’t see a single fish, but eventually, they found their opportunities and capitalized.

Simms: I kind of hate to ask this question, but just out of curiosity, how many permit have you tallied for yourself?

Frangiosa: You know, I don’t really keep accurate records of things like that but I’d modestly say 50ish. However, you’ve got to remember, on just about all of my permit trips, I’m hosting clients and therefore, they get the lion’s share of the shots. Even if I know they likely won’t be able to make the shot, I want them to take it because otherwise, how else are they going to learn. So yeah, I’ve landed 50ish, but I’ve been present for I don’t even know how many. A lot.

Simms: Do you recall your best day ever for permit?

Frangiosa: That — I do remember. I landed seven out of nine hookups in one day. Also, back to an earlier point, that stat reminds me of the biggest permit I ever landed. It happened early in the morning on the first fishing day of the trip. My clients were tired from traveling and staying up late and insisted that I take the first shot of the day. I tried to sway them, but again, they insisted. Their mentality was, it’s day one — we’ll have plenty of shots in the coming days. Eventually, we found a giant. I made one cast that was refused. I made another shot, hooked up and landed the biggest permit of my life. And guess what — we didn’t see another permit the rest of the trip. That was THE shot.

Simms: So let’s get into the conversation that sparked my interest in this Q&A. You mentioned a presentation tactic that drastically improved your hookup ratio. Before we go into detail, walk me through the process of arriving at this tactic?

Frangiosa: Sure. I had caught a few fish prior, but hookups were seriously few and far between which really fed into the stereotype of permit being finicky and extremely hard to fool. At that time, I didn’t realize just how important where the fly lands actually was. I know that seems like a critical component of success but I guess my point is, where I thought the fly should land was all wrong. By and large, I felt like the majority of my presentations were spot on. And for the life of me, I couldn’t understand why these great shots didn’t entice any attention let alone an eat.

Looking back, I didn’t have a guide or visibility that allowed me to understand what the problem was.

Simms: What was the presentation you were leaning into before you changed tactics?

Frangiosa: Back then, I assumed you should present your flies to permit exactly like you would for a bonefish. My school of thought was that if fish were actively swimming, not tailing, I would lead the fish and throw a little bit beyond the fish. This way, I’m giving myself a little extra room to feed the fish, strip in if they move in, or if they move out, the fly would already be there. If the fish was tailing, I’d try and drop it right in the mud spot in front of their face. That was my original theory and I did that for probably eight years or so.

Simms: What changed and why?

Frangiosa: I was on a reef in Belize, the wind was zero, and fish were everywhere and I mean everywhere. It was a dream day so to speak. The conditions really allowed me clarity to thoroughly examine what was going on. Every time I’d make my presentation to the exact spot that I thought the fly needed to be, I noticed the fish would lazily adjust their trajectory in a way that would put them just outside of my range. I don’t know if they sensed the vibration or presence of the line or what, but they would do the exact same thing every time. They wouldn’t spook, they’d just shift outside of my range. They just sensed something was off.

Simms: Those windless days seem like a dream, but as you know, those windless days do present challenges as well.

Frangiosa: Oh for sure. Ideally there’s a little wind and a little chop on the water. Conditions like that definitely allow you to get away with a lot more. However, on this windless day, I was really able to study and analyze the issue that had been plaguing me for years, regardless of the conditions. We were seeing so many fish, it really gave me the opportunity to troubleshoot. So, I scaled down to an 8-weight instead of my standard 9. In conjunction with the 8, I used an extra-long and lighter leader. It didn’t matter. The fish did the same thing, every time. Nothing I did made a bit of difference. Finally, my guide told me, I’ve been telling you all day, you’ve got to land the fly right on their head, otherwise they’re never going to eat.

Simms: Make them remember they’re a jack, hit them right on the head. Had you heard of that philosophy before?

Frangiosa: Oh yeah — over the years, I’d heard of people swearing by this method and had read plenty of articles saying the same thing. My thing is, everything about fly fishing for permit is so, cryptic, elusive, mysterious, and challenging — by nature of the lore, you almost go into it with complete involuntarily caution. Whether it’s your cast, how you strip the fly, your voice on the boat, and obviously your presentation. It kind of goes back to what I said earlier about the success I’ve seen with beginners. The more you know, and the more firsthand refusals you get under your belt, the more delicate and cautious, and careful you are with each successive opportunity you get. The idea of blasting a permit on the head with a weighted fly goes against the grain of everything I’d had come to know and learn about the challenge in it of itself. For me, each shot was more than a shot, it was a golden opportunity and the last thing I wanted to do was to blow it or waste it by hitting the fish right between the eyes — on purpose mind you. To me, that concept sounded like something that might work once in a blue moon, but logically, it just seemed like an almost guaranteed way to spook the fish right off the flat, just about every time. So, I never really had any inclination to try it.

Simms: I’m assuming you eventually let go of the fear and tried it that day, yeah?

Frangiosa: I did. But it’s interesting because honestly, it was a really challenging habit to break. Not only does it not make a ton of sense logically, but over time, crossing and leading salt water fish like bonefish, tarpon, redfish, snook, etc. pretty much becomes second nature. Over time, you’ve essentially trained yourself to lead and cross all salt water fish. Even when my guide told me to do it, I couldn’t. I was definitely open to trying it, and I did. However, I think almost subconsciously, I was telling myself, I’m going to try it, but then when I’d go to take my shot, I’d end up still leading and crossing the fish. Maybe I didn’t lead it as much but still, my point is, it took a minute to really get aggressive and purposely land the fly right in front of it.

Simms: What happened when you finally did?

Frangiosa: It was amazing. Again, especially with the conditions we had that day, I was able to watch with great clarity at what the fish did. When I landed the fly right on their head, instead of the fish continuing to swim out of my range, the fish would start to circle around the fly. They didn’t spook, you could just tell their body language changed because they knew something was within their feeding zone. So like I say, they didn’t spook, they just kind of started looking, and low and behold, they ate.

Simms: So explain where exactly and how you want the fly to land?

Frangiosa: Keep in mind, I’m still using about a 14 ft. leader and I’m not trying to blast the fish right in the head. In other words, I still want the fly to land softly and such. But, for me, now I always aim for my presentation to essentially land right between the fish’s eyes. You remember I told you that even in my early days of permit fishing, I did catch a fish here and there. The more I think about it, the more I believe that those fish I caught were fish that were coming straight at the boat. I think when fish were coming right at the boat, I was inadvertently landing the fly right on them, on accident. And for that reason, even today, I consider a fish coming straight at me to be a best case scenario.

Simms: Interesting, a head on shot seems to be one of the more challenging scenarios.

Frangiosa: I get it, but I love those shots. Another thing that’s a little unconventional is the fact that one of my favorite shots to take is at permit swimming away from me. You throw it on their shoulder while they’re swimming away, they’ll turn around and eat it. You’d never do that with a bonefish, they’d almost certainly spook. But permit don’t do that. You still use a really long leader and you land the fly nice and quiet, but you land it right on their head.

Simms: I’ve noticed a lot of times, when you do lead the fish and start your stripping sequence, there’s just a lot of room for error, or for the fly to foul, or for a small bonefish or jack to grab the fly. There’s just a lot of time for something to go wrong. The method you’re talking about however, kind of minimizes that. Do you agree? I mean, to a certain extent, you are taking a risk of spooking the fish, but if you make your shot and the fish doesn’t spook, your cutting out a lot of opportunity for error.

Frangiosa: That’s right. You’re putting the fish in a position to either eat or not eat, right then and there. Personally, I believe permit are very sensitive to how a fly moves. If a crab fly drops weird, or moves weird, the fish won’t eat it. When you put the fly right on them, you aren’t actually doing a lot of stripping at all. You’re coming tight and stripping it once or twice. So, like you say – they don’t have a lot of time to really examine it, and at that point, they’re already in feeding mode and I’d imagine that’s what they’re focused on more than anything else.

Simms: And in your experience, when you land a fly softly right on their head, they don’t tend to spook?

Frangiosa: I mean I guess it happens sometimes, but in my experience, as long as you don’t line the fish, they will not spook. Sure, there’s the risk of spooking the fish, but there’s also a big payout if the fish doesn’t spook which is — you’re making them decide to eat or not on impulse and that’s a huge advantage. Also, to me, it doesn’t matter, if you lead them, you’re likely not going to get an eat or even any kind of favorable reaction. So nowadays, I just go for it. I mean, I guess they spook a little bit. But think of it like this. If you land a fly in the middle of a big bonefish school, the fish kind of freak out and expand outward leaving a halo in the middle of the school. But, if you wait a second, the fish inevitably come back together and nine out of 10 times, you’ll get an eat. This is what I see happen when I put the fly right on the head of a permit, but it’s extremely rare for them to outright spook themselves out of contention. They might move a couple yards, but then they’ll go back to feeding and your fly is already there. If you take the risk and land the fly right on the fish’s head and the fish doesn’t spook (and it normally will not), you’re all but eliminating all of the finicky permit stereotypes.

Simms: Tell me about the first time you executed the tactic and saw it work?

Frangiosa: It was on that same super calm, fish everywhere day. It was such an opportune day to observe and learn. When I finally threw it right at them, you’d see them circle the fly and show interest. There were so many fish that day, I’d purposely go back to my old method and watch every time as they’d just skirt away and out of my zone. Depending on your presentation, you could literally calculate what was going to happen. That day was successful and that was the day I started believing. But when I truly implemented it, that was the day I landed seven fish. Ever since that day, my hookup to opportunity ratio has exponentially improved. On my last trip to Cuba, I had exactly one shot and I landed one fish. Now, I’m extremely optimistic and confident when I see a fish. To the extent of, if I see one, I feel like I’m going to catch it. This technique really and truly demystified a lot. Now, finding them where you can get to them, they’re settled, and they’re feeding, that’s the hardest part — getting one to eat is not.

Simms: Well, now I really want to go permit fishing in the worst kind of way. Can you leave us with any other subtle or not so subtle tips that have helped your permit game over the years?

Frangiosa: Hmmm. Let me think. Like I say, you still need to use a long leader and practice soft and accurate presentations. I’d also say, don’t ignore using bonefish flies for permit. Probably half of my permit have been caught on really small shrimp patterns like #6 Charlies believe it or not. Make sure your flies swim correctly. No wobbles, make sure it sinks upright, make sure any rubber legs don’t foul and things like that. Other than that, practice your casting and practice making both short and longer shots quickly and accurately with head winds, cross winds, etc. The last thing I’d point out is maybe not so much a tip but a skill that in my mind could very well be the most important skill of a permit angler and that is to be able to read the surface of the water to know what’s below it. This took me years, but now, I can tell not only where a fish is, but what kind of fish it is, how big the school is, which way it’s moving, etc. I’ve caught many fish that I didn’t see, but based on what the surface of the water was telling me, I knew what it was, where it was, and therefore, exactly where to land the fly. Understand that more often than not, you’re not going to see the fish. You’re going to see nervous water, wakes, a tiny tip of the dorsal and/or tail fin. As much as we like to see that giant black sickle tail waving above the water, that’s typically not the norm. It’s great when it happens, but most of the time, you’re sight-fishing the water and not the fish itself.